Kris Gasteratos: “A Vision for Meat Production in 2040” | Talks at Google

Kris Gasteratos: “A Vision for Meat Production in 2040” | Talks at Google


[MUSIC PLAYING] SUZETTE BISHOP: Kris Gasteratos
is the Founder and Creative Director of the Cellular
Agriculture Society called CAS. CAS is an international
501(c)(3) nonprofit, whose mission is to advance
the new field of cellular agriculture, the production of
real animal foods and materials from cells instead
of farmed animals. CAS provides a vision for a
world where animal commodities of today– like meat, dairy,
fur, and leather– will not come from
animals tomorrow. CAS has been featured in
publications such as “Science,” “The Washington Post,”
“Financial Times,” and the “MIT Tech Review.” In 2018, CAS was accepted
into the Harvard Innovation Lab, where Kris was previously
a student and researcher when he founded CAS. Kris is the author of
the Harvard and Stanford profile “90 Reasons,”
and has lectured on the topic of
cellular agriculture at prestigious institutions
around the world, such as Harvard, Stanford Sydney
University of London, NEMO Amsterdam, Texas A&M, and MIT. So please join me in welcoming
Kris Gasteratos to the stage. [APPLAUSE] Welcome. KRIS GASTERATOS: Thank you. SUZETTE BISHOP: All
right, so let’s start with what are we looking at? What is this image that
you’ve brought here today? KRIS GASTERATOS: So we
called this Project CMF, which stands for the
Cell-based Meat Facility. This is a vision for
what meat production may look like in the year
2040 in New York. As you can see here,
there’s sort of a– let’s see if this
works as we’re testing it– an autonomous
Tesla truck here, it’s sort of for delivery. A Hyperloop system for visitors
and delivery– and I’ll get into the process
a little later. But that’s sort of a look into
what meat production might look like in 20 years. SUZETTE BISHOP: So you’re
telling me that this is where– KRIS GASTERATOS: That’s right. SUZETTE BISHOP: –the future
of meat is going to be. KRIS GASTERATOS: Exactly,
without killing animals. Would be made from cells
instead of using animals. That’s sort of
the basis for CMF. And it’s a project– to talk
a little bit more about CAS– that we started to kind of give
a vision like we talked about for what this could
eventually look like. Because right now, we
have a system that’s sort of projected like this. If you look up what
lab-grown meat is, and that term is commonly used,
you see something like this. And it’s just not reflective
of what it will actually look like at scale. SUZETTE BISHOP: So maybe this
is a bit more sterilized version of what it kind of looks like? KRIS GASTERATOS: Yeah. Well, I think it’s more
attractive for the press to kind of push a
word like this– SUZETTE BISHOP: I see. OK. KRIS GASTERATOS: –and
for people to understand exactly what it could be. Cell-based meat is
the term we use, and I don’t know if that’s as
easily understandable instantly when you say this term. So we get that, but we want
to show what it could actually look like. And that’s why with Project
CMF we contact our partners at CAS or some of the
leading cell-based meat companies in the world. We want to create
something in between kind of a fantastical vision for
just a render that looks really attractive and something that’s
a legitimate architectural blueprint. So something in between where
all the numbers and everything you see for the sizes of
cell cultivators, the media components, et cetera– are based on what we, myself and
all the leaders in space, think will actually happen
within about 20 years. And it’s definitely ambitious. So these are not things
that are possible today like the cell densities and
cell cultivators and whatnot, but we’ll get to that. SUZETTE BISHOP: So can you
just take a step back again and describe a little bit more
about what cell-based meat is– KRIS GASTERATOS: Sure. SUZETTE BISHOP: –for people
who might not actually know. KRIS GASTERATOS: Yes. So you would take a
biopsy from an animal, and I’ll sort of walk
through the process later. But meat as a component
is mixture of muscle, fat, connective tissue. And so it’s essentially
creating those components without an animal
and harvesting them without animals producing them– ex vivo, you would say. And that is kind of
how I would describe lab-grown meat in a nutshell. Yeah, it’s just making
meats without animals. And at CAS we work
on other technologies as well, like making fur
without animals, and leather. And to be fair,
the differentiation here against plant-based is that
these are real animal products, they’re not made from plants. Under a microscope they
should look the exact same. So, yeah. SUZETTE BISHOP: Cool. So with that– KRIS GASTERATOS: I’ll
sort of walk through– SUZETTE BISHOP: Yeah. KRIS GASTERATOS:
Yeah, where we’re at. So I wanted to go through three
main renders of CMF, which help go through the process. So we’ll start with the
media production floor. And so, essentially,
what’s happening here is there’s a media storage
area in the back of CMF, which mixes with treated water in
these sterile water tanks and is mixed in this area here. So we’ll just call
this media producers, and that’s pumped up to the cell
cultivators on another floor. The only other thing relevant
I could talk about here is I could start
going over the medias. SUZETTE BISHOP: Yeah,
talk about media. KRIS GASTERATOS: Sure. Yeah. SUZETTE BISHOP: What exactly
is media and the whole process of getting from a
cell to a hamburger? KRIS GASTERATOS:
Yeah, so media is almost like the blood for
an animal’s body, which will feed cells and
allow them to develop. And the same thing has to
happen without an animal. So media is kind of that
artificial sort of blood within an animal’s body, and
that would allow cells to grow. So we just call
that culture media– cell media. So we’re in the
beef section of CMF. There’s four sections. We have beef, seafood,
chicken, pork. I’m going to walk to the
beef section of the facility. So there’s different media
for different cell types. A seafood cell would require
different media or nutrients than a beef, but we’ll
just walk through that one. Now we’re in the food
processing floor. So this is maybe the
most important floor because it’s literally how
we go from cells to something that people are actually
are familiar with. So back here you can see, it
kind of looks like a wall, but we call this a
meat cultivator, which is taking template
cells and turning them into more specified meat cells. See if I can zoom in here. And you can also see
back here is actually where meat production
is taking place. And everything is closed off
to keep everything sterile and simultaneously kind of
monitoring for pathogens. And down here, you can
see media recycling, which is after you
feed the cells there’s waste products in there so
it’s being recycled further in the process. Yeah, there’s a
lot going on here. SUZETTE BISHOP: Yeah. KRIS GASTERATOS: A lot of
little details and everything. That’s kind of an
overview of that floor. And then the main
interior is where you see a lot of other
action taking place. So most prominent thing here
is these cell cultivators. And what you’ll see here is what
we refer to as a seed train. So you’re taking a
small quantity of cells and say, take a
biopsy from an animal and you have 100,000 cells,
how do you get it into a tank like this, which is far, far
more cells than 100,000 cells. So it has to go through
what we call a seed train– start in smaller tanks
and continue proliferating exponentially until you get to
the second largest container which is over here, it’s
about 400,000 liters. And then a cell
cultivator, which is about 3 million
liters, which is very ambitious to what exist today. But a lot of
partners in our space think we could
eventually get there, perhaps in this timeline. Because no other
industry has needed mammalian cell culture
tanks at this size. So that’s why people
think we can eventually get to that stage. SUZETTE BISHOP: So
what does exist today? Is it a scaled down version
of what we’re seeing, what we’ve been discussing? KRIS GASTERATOS: Yeah, I
believe the largest tanks today are from Samsung– mammalian cell culture
about 15,000 liters. So as you see a huge jump there. But our criteria when speaking
with all the scientists in space– again, not to get
too into the fantastical side and make something that is not
achievable within 20 years– is we need at least
two or three– actually three CSOs, or
leading scientists in space, to tell us we think we could get
there if the demand is there– and we’ll talk about what kind
of demand for this facility is and how much meat it
could actually produce– so that this is a vision
for cell-based meat if it’s doing extremely
well for itself. A lot of traditional
animal products will be swapped
out at that stage. And then, obviously,
there’s a lot of money to go into R&D and whatnot. Which kind of segue, that’s
what this area is over here, is a seven floor, 75,000
square feet of R&D– pork, seafood, chicken,
pilot scale up, et cetera. A key component of the facility
that we kind of want to stress was that it’s visitor friendly. And so as you see, there’s
almost like a school trip going on over here and
people are going to visit, see how meat production
is actually made. And again, we’re in
the beef section. And actually, the only other
relevant thing I’ll add, is that we call these
feeder culture tanks. So essentially, you’re producing
components that cells need. Like let’s say you
would grow liver cells in these, which wouldn’t be
necessarily in the final meat product, but the
liver cells you grow are producing growth hormones,
which are ultimately given to the final main culture. So we’re using
that system there. There’s a lot different
ways to go about this, we just want to
show one of those. Yeah, and then that’s
the main interior. From here, I thought it
might be productive to talk about the production
process for CMF, because that’s always a
question that comes up, which is like, how is this possible? I touched on different
components of that. And before having
a design like this, it’s a really hard thing to say. Because you’re just like,
taking fats from an animal and it goes through a tank. And now hopefully
it’s a little easier– SUZETTE BISHOP:
Yeah, definitely. KRIS GASTERATOS: –to
describe what that is. So you would bring
raw materials, which is the powdered
media, in a Hyperloop system, which is how we
thought about doing this. There’s two kind
of ways to start– how the media gets
to where it is and how the cells
gets where they are. Cells are easy, we just
take a biopsy from an animal and then immortalize
that cell line so you have an infinite
amount of cells to select from, technically. And so once you bring
in the powdered media, you just store it in wherever. And it’s ultimately mixed
with the treated water, like I talked about,
into a media solution. And then that is pumped up
to the cell cultivators. And that’s what’s in
the cell cultivators to feed the cells that are here. Now once those reach
a certain threshold where there’s, let’s say, most
of this is where it needs to be and enough cells have
grown, we would then empty out into a floor below. Which is, again, what I refer
to as the meat cultivator, this kind of
wall-looking structure. So that’s where cells are
just template cells, kind of mesenchymal stem cells. And now in the meat
cultivator, they’re now turning into more
specified types of meat cells. So they go through a
scaffolding structure, meaning they get
structure, they’re not just in a media solution. And like I talked about
before, down here you can see– actually, let me zoom in. Down here you can see
in these areas here, we’re recycling the
media and the waste products that come from
muscle cells, like lactate. There’s a lot of analogs
to how human muscle works, as well, of course. And from there, process
continues by, again, sterilizing everything. We’ll it’s always sterile
because it’s always closed off from the environment. And then, eventually it’s
packaged and brought up to delivery. And that’s kind
of in a nutshell. And I make it seem so simple,
but it’s, obviously, still a long ways out, a lot of– SUZETTE BISHOP:
Yeah, I can imagine– KRIS GASTERATOS:
–problems to solve. SUZETTE BISHOP: –there might
be a number of challenges that you have to think through. KRIS GASTERATOS: Yeah, exactly. SUZETTE BISHOP: So
approximately how long would it take from start to
finish in this process to have a finalized, you know,
steak or burger or filet. KRIS GASTERATOS: Yeah, I
think that question comes up a lot, of how long exactly
the process will take. You just plan in advance
far enough, right? When Google prepares a
Pixel from the first metal to being at the store, it
just is ready when you need it and that’s kind of the point. However, to go from
start to finish, cell to the final product, it’s
about two to three months. But I think a lot of food
products are like that. I think a cauliflower
takes three months to go from start to being
ready at the supermarket. So it’s within a
reasonable range. SUZETTE BISHOP:
Yeah, it actually seems like a very
short amount of time. KRIS GASTERATOS: Yeah, exactly. Well, I mean, it’s also
a continuous process. You can create a
continuous process where once the cell
cultivators empty out, they have a new supply
coming into them. So everything’s always
running and maximizing efficiency like that. Yeah. SUZETTE BISHOP: Great. KRIS GASTERATOS: Yeah,
I guess some other stats that I prepared to sort of get
a size of the facility– it’s 250,000 square feet. One of our
inspirations was to try to match numbers of the
largest slaughterhouse in the world, which
from what I know is in North Carolina, which is
about a million square feet. If we really push
cell densities higher to what most scientists
would be comfortable with us going towards, or if you
just tweak some things– if you made some of those cell
cultivators bigger, you could get to numbers
in this one facility that would produce as much
as the large slaughterhouse the world. But we didn’t want to push that. Also, people don’t
really understand how much meat comes
out the biggest slaughterhouse in the world. It’s a lot of meat. 32,000 pigs are
processed per day. But we still reach a number for
CMF that’s pretty impressive. So we’ll get to
that in a moment. And then all of the design
of CMF and the numbers are based on non-genetic
modification. If you did undergo
processes of GMO, you could optimize things even
further and produce more meat. [? Still, ?] we thought to make
something that would not be based on GMO. And then lastly, is
that this facility would produce as much meat as
the entirety of New York City, which is all five burroughs. SUZETTE BISHOP: Wow. In one facility? KRIS GASTERATOS: Yeah,
this one facility, which is 250,000 square feet. So it’s 2 billion pounds of
meat approximately annually. SUZETTE BISHOP: Wow. KRIS GASTERATOS: A little
over, which is crazy. Like, we tried to look at
where geographically we would put something like
this and then zoom out and look at all
of New York City. It’s like this
would feed all that. It’s kind of based on the
amount, not necessarily the type of meat, right? We’re just saying you
could produce that much. It would have to be more
specified what type of meat exactly, which we didn’t
really go that deep into it. But that’s projecting also for
meat consumption increasing in the next 20
years in New York. So I think it goes to– the population increases
and meat goes accordingly. Yeah. SUZETTE BISHOP: Of course. Yeah. Very cool. KRIS GASTERATOS: Yes. That’s just like all
I had for the slides. SUZETTE BISHOP: For the slides? Perfect. KRIS GASTERATOS: But
obviously, there’s a lot more. SUZETTE BISHOP: So can you
tell us a little bit more about what motivated
you to start CAS? KRIS GASTERATOS: Sure. Yeah. So I guess I’ll have to go
back to my original impetus for getting involved in this
space in general, which is I ate meat and animal products,
I think like everybody else, like every meal. And just kind of stumbled upon
how meat production and meat consumption is so high
now that the system has had to change pretty
drastically from how I thought it was, in a very
traditional family farm open system. And it’s not really
like that at scale. And that brings about
a ton of issues. And then learning of
a system like this, which seemed to solve a
lot of those problems. And so that’s where our
support kind of stemmed from it and then I’ve just been involved
in a lot of different projects throughout my time. And we of culminated
this organization called CAS to now focus mainly
on design and video production, because I think this is a
really important thing that needs to be done that was
neglected in our space. It’s very easy to give an intro
on what this technology could eventually do for the world,
but to show exactly what this would look like was important. So we have more renders
coming and eventually want to make this into
a VR facility and– SUZETTE BISHOP: Wow, very cool. KRIS GASTERATOS: –whatnot. So that’s kind of the plan. SUZETTE BISHOP: So that would
really help in communicating what exactly cell-based meat
is and how this process would work– KRIS GASTERATOS: Yes. SUZETTE BISHOP: –leading
up to, hopefully, the future where this
might be a bit more– KRIS GASTERATOS: Exactly. SUZETTE BISHOP: –mainstream. KRIS GASTERATOS: That’s why
I think design and video is so important. Also, I’m honored to be here
at Google because you’re the top two websites in the
world where everyone would search for something like this. And when we talk about lab-grown
meat or they hear this concept, they’re searching on
one of those platforms. And I just don’t think
right now there’s a good enough representation
for the field of how much it could really change the world. So that’s why we’re changing
our website to better reflect that vision and heavily
investing into producing videos that we think do that as well. SUZETTE BISHOP: Very cool. Yeah, and I think
what excites me the most right now
is this opportunity for a future where we’re
getting meat and animal products that we don’t need
to actually completely raise a full animal and
slaughter them to do so. So do you think that cellular
agriculture might actually ever get our world to a place where
the next generation, maybe the one after that
one, might consider our current landscape of
animal agriculture a bit odd and see this as the
better way to do things? KRIS GASTERATOS: Yeah. You know, that was one
thing, just to go back a bit, that I thought was really
interesting to think about when we put a school trip
and kind of thought further about what
that design would be. It’s like what would
children like this think about something–
you know, first of all, they’re probably not
thinking anything. They’re happy they’re
not in school that day wherever they are. But I think, yeah,
I mean, I would assume it would seem normal. That’s what they
would grow up with. But I think animal agriculture
will never truly cease. I think it will just become a
small segment of total animal product production. SUZETTE BISHOP: Would there
be room in the industry for both in a way? KRIS GASTERATOS: Yeah. Yeah. I just think factory farming
will die and I think it should. And because it has too many
problems that are just– trying to optimize it
is just kind of absurd. So I think animal farming will
go back to how it used to be, because the demand will
decrease quite substantially. And I think cell ag will take
over a bulk of that interest. SUZETTE BISHOP: And with respect
to benefits on that side, as well as things like
combating climate change, how can cellular
agriculture actually reduce the impact of what we’re seeing
now with the industry of animal agriculture on the environment? KRIS GASTERATOS:
Yeah, so I think when you take the animal
out of the equation, you just solve so many issues. And so a lot of the
public health issues, for example, or the
environment, directly come from having the animal
there, like cows’ ruminant system producing greenhouse
gases and whatnot. So when you remove
that system, it just seems like it will
optimize so much more. I should say, with a grain
of salt, as much as– I wrote a piece called
“90 Reasons,” which talked a lot about the benefits
that this potentially has– but everyone should take
that with a grain of salt. It’s not where it needs to be. We’re not in a system like this
yet where we know exactly what those numbers are, we’re just
projecting that when you feed an animal grain, for example,
and it has to fuel the entire production of its
body– in it’s brain, in it’s bones and
everything else– we think fundamentally,
if you only select for what you would need,
it would require less resources overall. So it’s kind of the basic
environmental principle behind why this would
be far more sustainable than current methods. But there’s projections that
it might not be as well. I think we just need to be
really honest about what it brings to the table. SUZETTE BISHOP: Sure. KRIS GASTERATOS:
There’s 90 reasons, so I think there’s definitely
more than 90 reasons. But– SUZETTE BISHOP: 90
that you put together. KRIS GASTERATOS: 90
that we put together, so there’s others as well. But if a few of
them are wrong, I don’t think there’s any
point in like pushing those. That’s why at CAS we
are really glad to be an NGO in this space and kind
of separated from companies. Obviously, we advocate
for it because we think there’s a lot of
potential value in this concept. But if it proves to not be,
then we won’t support it. It’s based on this
having a lot of potential to solve a lot of issues. So that’s where it stems from. SUZETTE BISHOP: So one
of the first times– I don’t remember when exactly,
it was maybe a couple of years ago– the first time I started
hearing about cell-based meat, I was extremely curious
about the whole process and what this would look like,
but also a little bit hesitant, just given the whole idea
of getting meat from a lab. Are consuming cell-based
meat products safe? Should people be
comfortable consuming them? KRIS GASTERATOS: Yeah. Yeah. I think– actually
just fast forward here. This is why, again,
I think a design has value because you
can kind of see why it would be safe exactly. So all of this
system is closed off. So starting from the seed
trains to the media, when you get to the food
processing area– this is a floor unlike the main
interior where visitors can see this– you can’t really see
it, but from our perspective, there’s another loop the
visitor is able to see, which will be easily to
see in future renders. But that’s actually closed
off to this environment. This is a much more sterile
and important environment. I shouldn’t say sterile. But the actual area where meat
production is taking place is sterile and all of
that is closed off. As an added layer
of protection, you have constant monitoring
for pathogens, which we tried to represent here. And that’s kind of the reason
that this would be safe. There should be no risk
that pathogens could get involved in the system. And if there was, you just
address it immediately because you can see it
unlike a farm today. And if you see how
that’s done, it’s a pretty, relatively dirty
system that’s not like this. And I know that adds to
kind of strangeness of this, it feels really weird
that it would be like this but that would
suggest there wouldn’t be any issues with
sickness or anything. SUZETTE BISHOP: Cool. And then with things like
antibiotics and hormones, people are very
focused on trying to make sure they’re not
consuming them through animal products that we have today. Would anything like that be
required in this processing? KRIS GASTERATOS:
Yeah, it’s weird. We have some partners
who essentially say, there’s no antibiotic usage
because if you have a system closed off, it should be fine. And then others say,
it’s extremely minimal. And so it’s so minimal, you
would almost say it’s none. But I think some say
they would potentially consider using that. So that’s just going
to come up where CAS is out of the equation. And it comes up to the companies
what they want to decide to do. They might decide to go
with genetic modification, they might not. The design we wanted
to make was based on going to a dozen plus of
these companies and the leading scientist and saying, this
is where we want to go, is this possible? And make sure it would be. And so this is all
based on non-GMO, no antibiotics, which again, we
need more than three usually, but about three of these
leading scientists who have decades of experience
in tissue engineering whatnot to say, yeah, we
think we can get there, whether it’s no antibiotics,
the cell density. By the way, just if
I may explain these– SUZETTE BISHOP: Yeah, please do. KRIS GASTERATOS: –[INAUDIBLE]. Essentially, in
these tanks, there has to be an amount of cells
that you’re putting in there, whether it’s a 3 million
plus liter tank mainly full of liquid. So how many cells
are in that liquid? And so a higher cell
density would just mean there’s more
cells in there, which is more complicated
than if you had less cells. And so standards today,
100 grams per liter would be pretty high, and
we’re somewhere around 315, 330 grams per liter projecting
for meat consumption in New York City in about 20 years. Which is high, but
we have partners that think that that is
achievable within 20 years. So those are the two
big things that someone in the space might say,
that’s a little pushing it with this design, is that
the large cell cultivators and the cell densities. But some people think those are
overcomable issues so that’s what we put them in there. SUZETTE BISHOP: Very cool. So going back a bit. I think you might have touched
on this a bit earlier– the cell-based meat– is it
any different than actual meat from a fully grown animal
that we consume today? KRIS GASTERATOS: Yeah,
for us, the definition is really important–
that it has to be a real animal product. I think plant-based
has its space and I’ve had the Impossible
burger, for example. I think it’s close to
meat, but this is meat. So that’s kind of the big
difference between that. Same goes for other materials
as well, and companies that are working towards
producing fur, for example, without animals. It’s not a faux fur, it will
be the exact same thing. So again, that just sort of has
to go back to the companies. So I think some
companies, for instance, are interested in if you can
produce 100 grams of meat and you want to see how many
products you can make them into, you could add more
plant-based to get to market sooner. But maybe that would reflect
the product that exist today. But that’s what we,
sort of, advocate for, is real animal products that
are just made without animals. So the exact same. The only difference a
consumer would have to make is pick a different product, not
change their diet in any way. SUZETTE BISHOP: So the goal
is pretty much like matching what we have today, right? Then feasibly, in
the future, I might be able to have a piece
of fish, a burger, that I wouldn’t be able to tell
the difference between where it came from? KRIS GASTERATOS: Yeah. In “90 Reasons” I
talk about that moment where you do a
massive blind taste test and nobody can
tell the difference. And I think that’s kind
of like, combat what– in their defense,
I understand why they might think–
vegetarians and vegans think plant-based meats were
similar to real meat. But I’ve heard that a lot
from that community of, like, this taste exactly like meat. But it’s not. SUZETTE BISHOP: It’s not. KRIS GASTERATOS:
Yeah, and so I think if you can pull off a
large-scale blind taste test and every single person–
not every single person, but obviously results
that suggest no one can really differentiate
what it is, you’ve now hit a certain standard. SUZETTE BISHOP: Yeah,
and do you think that’s part of the
goal in all this? In order to have people want to
adopt this way of getting meat in the future, how important
is it to have that? KRIS GASTERATOS: I think
that’s 100% necessary. Yeah, I suggest that by
the end of the century, most meat production will
not come from animals and will come via
cellular agriculture. I only think that will happen
if you can reach biomimicry to a high level like that. And most of the scientists
in our space have, sort of, grown up with when I came
in five, six years ago sort of think that
that is eventually achievable like that. There’s a lot of nuance, right? Just like with people, when
you work out your muscles, obviously there’s
some interaction that needs to take
place and muscle growth. So that might
affect how we taste. And so electrical stimulation
to actual cells might be needed. There’s a lot of questions
to how to get there. But I think that is the goal. It’s just the difference between
objective and subjective, right? SUZETTE BISHOP: Sure. KRIS GASTERATOS: And
plant-based, it’s subjective. It’s like, this tastes great
but it’s not the same as meat. And we have the advantage of
saying, this is the exact same, just without making an animal. And so it’s not necessarily
better or worse, it’s objectively the same
and there’s obviously a market for that. Most of the world eats
literally that product. SUZETTE BISHOP: So
how have you seen the interest in
cellular agriculture evolve since you started CAS? And are there more companies
entering the field? And how soon can we expect to
see products in our local Whole Foods or at a McDonald’s? KRIS GASTERATOS: Sure. To that last question,
this is something, again, there’s so much
range between companies, and most don’t want
to put a date on that. What I can say is that
the majority of companies that we pose that question
to say, something within– like, that’s a large scale
to get to the McDonald’s, Whole Foods scale. So we’ve kind of set
this marker of like, most Americans would have access
within a reasonable car drive and 20 minute
proximity at that level where most people
could access it in something in the range
of like 10 to 15 years away, is what a very
conservative figure would look like for that. So late 2020s, a lot of
companies like to lean towards. As for your– sorry, what
was the first question again? I forget. SUZETTE BISHOP: No, no. It’s all good. Just in terms of when
we’d be able to expect to see it in mainstream. KRIS GASTERATOS:
Yeah, that’s kind of– SUZETTE BISHOP:
Yeah, and how you’ve seen the industry evolve. KRIS GASTERATOS:
Oh, that’s right. Yes. I did see the industry
evolve immensely and I guess, Sergey Brin
was integral to that in the beginning,
which is I vividly remember bringing
this concept up and it’s just kind of laughable. And then you have some
pretty serious people– Sergey Brin, Bill
Gates, Richard Branson– kind of invest and it becoming a
more serious concept like that. And I think for those who were–
and even before I was, five, six years ago, decades before– they saw a vision that
this could be possible and it’s becoming a reality. And there’s finally
enough, like, you know– definitely is more
needed, if you’re interested in getting
involved, that definitely all have to take place. But there’s scientific expertise
that’s pushing it forward, there’s investment
pushing it forward. So it’s moving where
eventually [INAUDIBLE].. SUZETTE BISHOP: Yeah,
and actually last week I saw that a company called
Perfect Day released to market what they called a flora-based
animal-free dairy product, which is incredibly exciting. But of course, I tried
to click on the link and it was already sold
out in minutes, I believe. So what exactly– I mean, this is essentially
like similar technology– KRIS GASTERATOS: That analog. SUZETTE BISHOP:
–that they’ve used. KRIS GASTERATOS: Exactly. Yeah. So– SUZETTE BISHOP: Yeah, go ahead. KRIS GASTERATOS:
Yeah, eventually, we’d love to build out what
that could look like. Tanks actually, they’re
just fermentation tanks. We could almost
argue if you didn’t see those conveyor belts, like,
that’s what’s happening here. But yeah, it’s a similar– so you can section off
cellular agriculture into technologies, tissue
engineering, which is primarily for meats. and
then fermentation, so you’re taking a yeast
cell or microorganism and kind of programming
the DNA there to produce proteins
that are in dairy or eggs or other products. And so that’s what,
from what I understand, Perfect Day is doing. They’d be better to
speak about it than I am. But that’s kind of the gist of
producing exactly what milk is. Because not an
actual dead organism, it’s literally just
an animal product that comes from a bovine animal. So that’s the basis. Which I think is an easier
science kind of get to, which is why commercialisation
windows are sooner for products like that. Like you said, these kind
of products out recently. SUZETTE BISHOP: To market. Yeah. Really exciting. So do you consider
cell-based meat products, as you’ve described,
that require a biopsy from an animal–
do you consider them vegan? Is there another term for what
we would expect to call this? KRIS GASTERATOS: Yeah, I
wouldn’t say it’s vegan, because most people would
say it’s an animal product– SUZETTE BISHOP:
Comes from an animal. KRIS GASTERATOS:
—-[INAUDIBLE] would say that. I think there’s some overlap
in the interest between people who would advocate
for this and vegans. But I think that’s
kind of the biggest difference is that veganism
is calling for a pretty drastic dietary change that
most people– vegans might not be happy to hear this, but most
people don’t want to do that. And it’s kind of been
proven in reality. But as a good friend of
mine said a long time ago, this is where the practical
meets the ethical. I thought that was a
really interesting way to position this and that’s
how a lot of products fall under the category there. And just as [INAUDIBLE] Perfect
Day as well, with a name. The naming issue is complicated
enough when it comes to meat, when it comes to these
other products it’s really– SUZETTE BISHOP: It’s
even more interesting– KRIS GASTERATOS: Yeah, SUZETTE BISHOP: –how
to convey what it is. KRIS GASTERATOS:
So that’s why we use the term like cellular
agriculture, which we don’t think the public
would ultimately use. But I think that’s
just our umbrella term for kind of everything. SUZETTE BISHOP:
So perhaps that’s an area of the industry
that will be developing and we’ll see change as
well as products come out? KRIS GASTERATOS: Exactly. At CAS, we were going
to work with a company to kind of just name what– for example, CMF. We had some names for
what a facility like this would be called. Like traditional meat
is to cell-based meat as a slaughterhouse is to this– and what you would
refer to this. We’ve kind of taken the
safe route and said, CMF, the cell-based
meat facility. But we think there
are interesting names to explore for that. But ultimately,
naming is important and that’s ultimately what– I mean, other
companies are going to have names as well for the
product, but the general name. Instead of a Pixel,
it’s a smartphone. And so what is the
smartphone of this? And right now cell-based
meat is that term. SUZETTE BISHOP: That term. KRIS GASTERATOS: Yeah. SUZETTE BISHOP:
And how important do you think that is in
demystifying for the consumer? Like, OK, this is what it is,
and also you should try it. KRIS GASTERATOS: Yes, exactly. Yeah, I think it’s
really important. I feel like ultimately,
what’s most important– it’s kind of why we want to make
this a very open facility as transparency
amongst the industry. I’ve never seen an effort
amongst the COs in this space to be so forward with
transparency and telling us, like, we love the idea
of having people actually see what’s happening. And this floor is
nice, but also to see this floor– exactly what’s
going on behind the scenes. And I think that’s
kind of what’s going to be most important. Talk is cheap. When people can
actually go in there and you can give them
all the data that they’re interested in that’s not
IP sensitive or whatever, that’s reasonable to suggest– that, I would feel like, would
make most or some consumers feel comfortable
with what this is. SUZETTE BISHOP: With what it is. KRIS GASTERATOS: But
at the end of day, it’s still very different. I’m just like all of you. I’ve gotten involved
in the space because I think it has a
lot of potential value. But I can’t help but also look
this and be like, it’s just not how I’ve eaten meat in the past. This is really different. But if you look at all this
has to offer and kind of see that you would never get
salmonella eating this. A million people,
according to the CDC, get sick annually
from eating poultry– would never happen with
a system like this. And there’s other reasons, just
type 90 reasons into Google and that’s kind of the paper. We have more of those reasons. SUZETTE BISHOP: Oh,
well, maybe here’s one. What about things
like food recalling– when things go wrong and
then you hear a report and you might be concerned
like you’ve consumed something like that? KRIS GASTERATOS: Sure. SUZETTE BISHOP: And the
actual impacts of that too in the industry. KRIS GASTERATOS: Absolutely. SUZETTE BISHOP:
Would that be reduced in this type of environment? KRIS GASTERATOS: Yeah, we
think it’s kind of impossible, like we suggested, because of
that kind of food monitoring that would take place here. And the fact that
everything’s sterile, but you would have additional
measures for food safety. But you know, it’s
a really tough thing to do like for me to
sit here and be like, it’s never going to happen–
fast forward 20 years and I’m now, like, a meme in the
industry because like some food break out happened. But I think– SUZETTE BISHOP: But
the potential is there. KRIS GASTERATOS: Yes,
the potential is there. SUZETTE BISHOP: I could
potentially see that. KRIS GASTERATOS: If producers
do this the right way, according to the theoretical
basis of this concept, that should never happen. SUZETTE BISHOP: And you think
as a growing and newer industry that this is
something that’s going to be a little more regulated,
scrutinized right now as it’s in the process? KRIS GASTERATOS:
Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, it’s kind of
why we differentiated CAS to focus more
on designing video– there’s other amazing
nonprofits in the space. The Good Food Institute and
New Harvest or are two of them. New Harvest based
here in New York. And they work more in the
R&D side, regulation side– we sort of stay in
our lane and focus in these areas as
a smaller group. But yeah, those areas are
really important– regulation and whatnot. SUZETTE BISHOP: Cool. So another question
going back a bit again, apart from red meat– so cellular agriculture
is being explored in other industries of fish,
dairy, eggs, things like that. So I’m a pet owner and
I’m an animal lover. I have two cats at home
and they need to eat meat. Are there companies
that are doing things like working on cellular
meat-based pet foods? Things like that? KRIS GASTERATOS: Yeah, I think
that’s an eventual application for sure. Right now, it’s
almost an easier one because I don’t think there’s
as much concern for food safety traditionally with pet
food, unfortunately. But usually, in the
meat production system, meat that’s often not
OK for humans to eat will be given to pets. SUZETTE BISHOP: That’s
how it currently is. KRIS GASTERATOS: Exactly. But assuming they want to kind
of follow with that trend, they would just
say, like, oh, we can get a animal food,
which is unfortunate. But that’s how it is. So yeah, I think
that’s possible. There’s like endless
possibilities with this to think about. But right now the
primary focus is to produce same meat as humans
around the world are eating. If anyone’s interested in
following this project– SUZETTE BISHOP: Of course. KRIS GASTERATOS: –and
the future projects of CMF and seeing where things
advance in the future, you can sign up for our
newsletter at CellAg.org. We respect your inbox, we email
like twice, a few times a year, and our social media
@CellAgriculture. SUZETTE BISHOP: Perfect. All right, we’ll take
our first question. AUDIENCE: Maybe not exactly
your wheelhouse, but definitely interesting– what do you think– is anyone throwing around
any kind of thoughts on what unit economics might be
at two billion pounds per year run rates? Like how much a pound of meat
would cost in the system? KRIS GASTERATOS: Yeah. Oh, that’s a good question. A lot of these really
important and direct numbers we have and that’s what we
want to publish on our website when we release the
project publicly. I don’t know that off
the top of my head. And you’re right, I’m not
the best person necessarily to do that. That’s why we said, it’s
somewhere in between a vision and an exact blueprint. Also, it’s really tough to do
that because so many numbers are going to change through the
course of the next 20 years. It’s like how much media
costs per liter effects that cost drastically– the final
product, unfortunately. I wish I could give
you a better answer. AUDIENCE: Thanks. SUZETTE BISHOP: Hi. AUDIENCE: Hi. What kind of
trade-offs are there between the gigantic
tank versus just having more of the smaller tanks? KRIS GASTERATOS: Absolutely. Yeah– AUDIENCE: Is it hard to clean? KRIS GASTERATOS:
Yeah, for us, so if you’re in a
place like New York and you didn’t want
a facility like this, let’s say you wanted
a smaller scale facility that would produce
just for Manhattan, for example. Obviously, real estate’s
really expensive, so you’d want to maybe
build up, rather than out. So my point is, if you want to
hit a hundred million liters are in total productive
capacity for a city– it probably would be
better to build that up to save more space than if
you made smaller ones wide. Unless you made smaller ones on
different floors, which I guess solves that issue as well. But that was kind of the
main reason to do that. Yeah. Although, that’s more
possible today because tanks are usually not this big. So that might be
an easier solution. Thanks. SUZETTE BISHOP: We can take
your question really quick. AUDIENCE: Hey, thank
you for coming in. KRIS GASTERATOS: Thank you. Yeah. AUDIENCE: So in moving
to the direction with the aspiration of having
these facilities produce the majority of meat, are
there any conversations around like, chicken
wings and how do you– you have to replicate the
bone to the cartilage– KRIS GASTERATOS:
Of course, yeah. AUDIENCE: Like a bone-in ribeye. We’re just conditioned, if
I go to a steakhouse house, I want it a particular way. KRIS GASTERATOS: Of course. AUDIENCE: So it seems
like at a certain point, you’re going to– sorry for the vegans,
this maybe a bit gruesome. But at some point, if
you want a leg of lamb, you’re going to have to start
a conveyor belt with legs of– KRIS GASTERATOS: Yeah,
I know what you mean. AUDIENCE: So like
how far do you go before you create the entire– KRIS GASTERATOS:
Yeah, well, luckily, for the complexity
of this science, most meat is unstructured
meat, meaning it’s not that kind of meat. But I know what you
mean, obviously. You know, when we talk about
this being the status quo method of meat
production this century, how do you replicate
a Thanksgiving turkey and all of this. But I think that’s
the ultimate goal. Companies have that in mind. Like our first
gen products, it’s why we show just, kind of,
basic products like meatballs and hamburgers,
which actually are– I want to say 80%, I’m not
positive on that figure, which is a huge portion. And then everything
else eventually needs to be done as well, which
is more complicated, of course, to make the bone and the
complex structure of all those different products. But I think when I
say, 10, 15 years away, it’s more the
unstructured products. And that is the next step there. Yeah. So important though, obviously,
all of that needs to be done. People think there’s like a red
ribbon moment where it’s like, it’s out in 10 years and then
every product has an analog. But it definitely
won’t be like that. SUZETTE BISHOP: [INAUDIBLE]. All right. AUDIENCE: Hello. This is kind of an add
on to his question. Relating, I guess, more
finite to starting point, given the variety of the
types of meat– chicken wings, turkey, leg of lamb. Starting with something that
doesn’t need a bone structure, but then how do you even
pick where to start? Ground chuck doesn’t taste
the same as ground pork and so on and so forth. So what media cells- how do you
determine where that starting point is– KRIS GASTERATOS: Exactly. AUDIENCE: –as you build
up to the taste test? KRIS GASTERATOS:
Again, that’s probably the best for the companies. But I would just say,
in our meat cultivator where you just
see kind of a tank and then meat is
coming out of it– you would have a scaffolding
structure that would just– again, depending a lot on
the media, would change, I think, taste and kind of a
lot that’s coming out there. And there’s different media
for the cell cultivator and the meat cultivator. So there is a lot that I
think would influence what you’re ultimately referring to. But that needs to be done, yeah. 100%. AUDIENCE: So you’re
focused on the technology and somebody else, kind of,
will filter in the media? KRIS GASTERATOS:
Filter in the media? AUDIENCE: Kind of like, the
media itself can change, but you just need to
build the technology to– KRIS GASTERATOS:
Well, right now, yeah. It’s just sort of getting
to the point where you’re like, oh, this could this
could get to scale like that. And I think there’s enough
prototypes that already prove that that’s possible. But yeah, you said
it best, that’s exactly how it would
need to be done. AUDIENCE: Cool, thanks. KRIS GASTERATOS: Thanks. SUZETTE BISHOP: Cool. Hi. AUDIENCE: Hello. So as I understand it,
of the issues with meat is that it can take 10
to 30 pounds of feed for every pound of
meat that you get. I’m not sure if there’s the
same analog for lab-grown meat. But what is the meat eat
and how efficient is it? KRIS GASTERATOS: Sure, yes. So that’s the media. The best things to use–
it’s similar to how computers run, sort of,
off the human minds, right? Except we’re taking what
happens in an animal’s body and doing it without an animal. So the media acts as
that kind of blood that runs through
an animal’s body and feeds its cells
with nutrients. So I didn’t mention
this actually, but the powdered media’s basic
components of rice, algae, grass, which has vitamins,
minerals, growth factors. And even those
feeder culture tanks can feed the main cell line. So that’s kind of
what the food is. It’s just referred to as media. That’s what cells would consume. As for how efficient it
is, again, those numbers are really kind of
tough to come by. At this point,
when it’s so early, there’s so much experimentation
still taking place. But everything looks
in the direction that it would be
far more resource efficient than feeding– you said it best, right. Like, 30 pounds to an
animal, which ultimately, you’re discarding a lot
of those other products. AUDIENCE: Hi, thank you
very much for coming. KRIS GASTERATOS: Thank you. AUDIENCE: Have you
tasted lab-grown meat? KRIS GASTERATOS: I haven’t. I’ve had the chance to. But I personally
think a lot of testing should take place with this. Like, to go back to
our sentiment of this is a really different thing
and I think a lot of testing should take place. But when that
happens and I think there’s thorough
enough testing, that I think most people in this
room would be OK with. I know there’s plenty
of people in our field that are excited to be, like,
the first ones to try it. And that’s great. Yeah, I just think
for this to work, it’s a very fragile concept. This cannot come out in 10 years
and sicken half of New York or something. It would destroy the concept. So there needs to be a really
strong safety position. So that’s why I haven’t. AUDIENCE: So it’s
not in the state where people are trying it? KRIS GASTERATOS: Well,
like Suzette mentioned, I think Perfect Day’s
giving out products early and there’s other companies
that have started. But if you’re talking
about meat specifically, it’s still a ways out. And when we say, 10,
15 years, remember, we’re talking about most
people can access that. So sooner than not, should
be in high-scale restaurants. That’s where people
are trying it. But people have
been trying it for– well, I remember in 2013
with Sergey Brin’s project with Mark Post. People were trying it then. But it’s– I don’t know if
that’s representative of what it would actually be like, so
I don’t know if that’s fair either. But yeah. AUDIENCE: Thank you. KRIS GASTERATOS: Thanks. AUDIENCE: Hi, thank
you for coming. KRIS GASTERATOS: Yes. AUDIENCE: My question is more
about the ethical side of it. Today when we pick
some meat to eat, we know it’s actually
from some animal. So we know it’s chicken,
we know it’s beef. With this kind of
concept, how do we make sure the original cell
that was used to grow the meat is actually from
a specific animal? KRIS GASTERATOS:
That’s why you need a third party to kind of like– or to be fair, if a
producer is that dumb to be, like, we’re going to
give seafood to people and it’s actually chicken,
they are shooting themselves in the foot. So I think that’s a
pretty dumb thing to do. But I think that’s where
regulation comes in, as well, to kind of make
sure that everything gets to where it needs to be. AUDIENCE: Yeah, what
if the unwanted cells were mixed in it? How do we even
distinguish this is not purely beef but mixed with
some unwanted cells in it? KRIS GASTERATOS: Absolutely. Yeah. It’s a good ethical question. Like you said, there needs
to be proper regulation. If companies are not
following through with what they’re saying, it’s
extremely misleading. And this is the
beauty of capitalism, that they would probably
not exist further after that happened, I would assume. If they were selling,
here’s our beef, and it’s seafood the whole time. I hope people would not
be too fond of that. But yeah, so both
regulation and there being a general third
party and economic forces– I think that would prevent
that from happening. But it could happen. If it does happen,
I would be really disappointed in any
group that did that. But yeah. AUDIENCE: Thank you. KRIS GASTERATOS: Hi. AUDIENCE: Hi. My question is very similar to
the previous one, which is– just thinking about how
I imagine if and when this gets mainstream,
we would eat lots of more different
types of meat than we do now like
certain animals like maybe rabbits, where
it’s like too expensive to make a large scale
amount of rabbit meat, but now with this
maybe you could. And so then my mind started
going to all these other things and I’m like, what if there
was a malicious person that wanted to like put a
human sample in there? And I know that
sounds maybe crazy, but maybe if I thought
it, maybe someone else might think it too? KRIS GASTERATOS: Yeah. AUDIENCE: And so, I
heard what you just said about there needing to
be a third party in regulation but have you thought in
the design of the building that maybe there should
be extra security around that initial sample
or anything like that? KRIS GASTERATOS: Yeah. There has to be. That cannot happen,
quite simply. Unless some weird
market comes out with cannibals in the
next 20 years, maybe? I don’t know. But for the most
part, we kind of just pick four really popular
meat species types– beef, seafood, chicken, pork. And that’s what it should be. But that’s been
said for so long. Yeah. That that could happen, and
then is cannibalism ethical then if that happens? There’s so many questions
that come out of it, for sure. But that’s actually
been posed if like, this were to supply meats for
a human population on Mars and then the cell bank were to
corrupt and the martians were, like, how do we make meat now? And they look down and like
sample themself or something. Yeah. But hopefully that
never happens like that. Thank you. AUDIENCE: Thanks
for coming, Kris. Can you tell us about who
is leading in this space and what the companies
we can go follow so we know who’s making beef
verse who do we go for chicken? KRIS GASTERATOS: Sure. Yeah. All right, you’re going to
make me pick the companies. There’s a lot. I think the best
thing I could say for that would be, if you look
up cell-based meat on Google, you’d probably find
those top companies. Or our new website, which
will come out next month, will have kind of a
comprehensive list of all the companies
in the space ranging from the meat to the
leather to the fur– actually to the
leather, but to the fur and all these other kinds
of products and dairy and eggs and everything else. So cannot pick just one. The other ones
will, like, haunt me if I decided to say, oh,
yeah, go and visit this one. There’s a good amount
of companies as well. And a lot of them are in the
Bay Area and some in Europe. And there is I
think a dozen plus. But there’s a lot
of stealth companies as well that we’re
in contact with. So a lot of companies. And there’s some that
work on special, like, only fat or mainly fat or
only seafood or a certain type of seafood. So yeah. SUZETTE BISHOP: Cool. Hey. KRIS GASTERATOS: Hi. AUDIENCE: Hi, thanks
for coming out here. So one thing I’m wondering
is like, now the market have a lot of different cut and
even for the same kind of cut, have different level, like
the 5A State stuff like that. So with this
technology, it’s like is everybody going to be feeding
on the highest level of meat? KRIS GASTERATOS: 5A is
what exact [INAUDIBLE]?? AUDIENCE: I think it’s about
the fats that is like– KRIS GASTERATOS:
Oh, interesting. Yeah. You’re saying like a lower
fat content or something? AUDIENCE: Or like
more fat content. KRIS GASTERATOS: Oh,
more fat content. AUDIENCE: And have like a
marble like the texture. KRIS GASTERATOS: Yeah, well,
this is why it’s really, I think, I hope, a lot of
the traditional companies are interested in
this technology, because you would make the
exact same product every time, which is pretty much impossible
right now in the meat industry. So that could be possible and
it kind of changes the scale, right? I think that would be the case. The possibilities
are really endless. You can make a burger
that’s 100% meat, zero fat, and things that are
really difficult or impossible today with traditional
meat production. We can make meat, like she
said, from different animals that aren’t traditionally done. Or like combinations
of rabbit and flamingo or like whatever random
animal you’d pick. I don’t know. [INAUDIBLE] flamingo. You pick cells from any animal
and kind of put that together. That’s the difference
between plants and animals– animals have a muscular system
so you could select from that. But yeah, I think the standards
would change in a positive way. It would be kind of
absurd if anyone ever got sick from something like
that where today it just is pretty common. AUDIENCE: Right, I
was just wondering, theoretically, the cost of
create those kind of meats is going to be the same? KRIS GASTERATOS: Yeah, well, I
don’t think this will take off until it gets to the same. There’s a lot of numbers
thrown around for years like, 350,000 pound or dollar
burger, that’s how much a– I spoke to those researchers
directly and a lot of people don’t know where that
number came from. So like, no one knows what
those numbers are really. Obviously the companies do. But it’s definitely
decreasing all the time. And I think when
that inflection point happens where it’s the
same is where things will get really interesting. Because right now,
it’s obviously more– it’s not even out yet. But when that happens
is when people will be faced with a decision. Like, this is the same
cost, the exact same thing. It doesn’t kill an animal. You know, today
our conversation– 32,000 animals are killed every
second in animal agriculture, including seafood. So that will never happen, you
have no chance to get sick. You have no issues
with the environment. I’m kind of projecting that all
the benefits for the concept hold true. So why not select that? There are probably
good arguments. I looked through them
as well, and people would have different reasons. But I think society won’t change
drastically until that cost inflection happens. Thanks. AUDIENCE: Thanks. KRIS GASTERATOS: Hey. AUDIENCE: Hey. Hey, so first of
all, I want to say that the renderings look great. KRIS GASTERATOS: Thank you. Wow. Thank you. AUDIENCE: I can tell you
put a lot of work into it. KRIS GASTERATOS: I
need to shout out my co-designer, [INAUDIBLE],,
who is the visual design on this and made so much of it look
as attractive as it does. Yeah, I’ve mainly served
as the concept designer. But thank you. Hundreds of hours for design. And there’s a lot
more coming as well. AUDIENCE: Great. A couple of things that
I would hope to see in your future renderings. Like this one, it seemed like
it might be power efficiency and for scale– it seemed like it would be
kind of like the museum for– display. Like I was worried
about children spitting over the edge
into [INAUDIBLE] meat. KRIS GASTERATOS:
Initially, we wanted to put that food
processing floor up there and then it was like, what
if kids throw stuff at it? So we had the food
processing below. It’s definitely not
optimized the best, right? Like it’s going up and
then down too much. But there’s always this
balance between at this stage trying to create a
really attractive design and then trying to make it
as real as possible too. Not that it’s not possible, it’s
just not the most efficient way to do a lot of the things
that we’re suggesting. But like you
mentioned the design, and that just
always will happen. It’s also hard to design
something in 20 years. We’re thinking like, should
there be a parking lot if all the cars are driverless,
and all these questions that are tough to think about. AUDIENCE: I think if you look
at some of the indoor growing pictures of where they have
it stacked floor to ceiling and also the AC
inside the building might be really expensive. There’s some limestone
caves that they converted into office
buildings or places where you can store stuff. And that might be a
good location for this, you get the AC pretty much– KRIS GASTERATOS: No,
that sounds great. Yeah. AUDIENCE: –not for free, but– KRIS GASTERATOS: Thank
you for the suggestion. AUDIENCE: –with like gigantic
60 foot high caverns where you can put this kind of stuff. KRIS GASTERATOS: Oh, wow. Yeah. That sounds great. Trust me, I’ll be
rewatching this and checking on incorporating all the– yeah, it’s hard to make
something that is from scratch that no one even really– like a lot of the
companies, obviously, were immensely
helpful to make this, but that’s kind of where
the difficulty came in. Do you put the cell
cultivators, and what orientation do you put them in? How do you maximize
space exactly? I don’t have an architectural
background in doing that. But we knew what
had to be in there and just figured
it out from there. That’s super helpful. Thank you. Hey. AUDIENCE: So my
brother-in-law’s family, they’ve raised a few animals
in the past for consumption– chickens and pigs. And I was wondering
if you ever thought about this technology being
moved into the DIY space where individuals can do
their own meat growing? KRIS GASTERATOS: Yeah,
there’s a community of people that do that in
Japan, and a small one, I think, here in
New York, as well. [INAUDIBLE] In definitely the US. But absolutely, that’s
something that I think is happening already. Oh, you’re saying like in the
future someone would make– AUDIENCE: Like in
the feature instead of raising your own chickens,
you’d take all the cells and make them in your house. KRIS GASTERATOS:
Yeah, that’s why we got into design
with CAS, because there were so minimal like design
efforts in the space. But one of them definitely is. Someone made a
homemade meat maker that would be like in 50
years or something that would be possible and of
pick the cell you want and then it comes out. But we haven’t gotten that far. I think that’s possible
definitely to do and would be
interesting for sure. AUDIENCE: Thanks. KRIS GASTERATOS: Yeah. SUZETTE BISHOP: Cool. AUDIENCE: Starting
with the cell bank that’s created from
a biopsy or whatever from an initial animal– does that last for
all of eternity or do you ever need
to add new cells? KRIS GASTERATOS: That’s sort
of the [INAUDIBLE] immortalized cell banks is that
you kind of have a– you said it best, an
infinite supply of cells. And so that’s why, again,
different companies are approaching this differently. But it would maybe be possible
to take a biopsy from one animal ever, never touch an
animal again, produce meat. AUDIENCE: Unless you wanted
to add flamingos, I guess. And then another
question I had was, would you have the same issues
with cholesterol, carcinogenic effects of meat with this? KRIS GASTERATOS: Sure. Yeah. So if you make it
the exact same, you have to stick by
it being the exact same and having some of those issues. So I think we could, for
instance, not have animal fat. You could make the
fat something else, but then that wouldn’t
make it the same. So again, up to the
companies to kind of think about what
they exactly want to do when they
release products. If they want to maybe have
different lines– if something is 100% meat and maybe no fat,
plant-based fat, real fat. My thought process,
just predicting what people would
be interested in, is the first gen should
be the exact same. As people get more
comfortable with it, maybe start experimenting
with different stuff. Yeah. SUZETTE BISHOP: And I think
we have time for just one more question over here. AUDIENCE: You’ve talked
a lot about the benefits to the impacts to the
environment and to animals– what are some of the risks
and concerns being discussed amongst the industry now? And I’m going to spit off
one that will sound very far fetched now, but I imagine
in 20, 30 years’ time when this is an actual reality– I’m imagining if we have
to regulate the meat so that there’s not a
ton of differentiation for the consumer, perhaps,
the differentiation is real meat versus the
ethical cell-based meat. And if we are introducing
new types of meat, say that flamingo comes
into the picture again– KRIS GASTERATOS: I love how this
is like now the alternative. AUDIENCE: Then basically
the customer differentiation becomes like the real
versus the ethical meat and therefore, maybe the real
has like a higher brand value, so now we end up killing
all the world’s flamingos. These are some things
that sound extremely far fetched but I imagine looking
at something that such a reality in the
future– like what are these far fetched things
that are concerning you now? KRIS GASTERATOS: Yeah,
well, that’s a great one. I think it’s hard to predict. The other reason it’s
so hard to predict is because there’s so many
intersecting technologies that could affect this. We talk about a scenario
where the first trip to Mars, which would
be maybe funded by filming it and streaming
it to Earth, and everyone would watch like this first
group of people to go to Mars. Maybe they’re consuming
cell-based meat and if they are
eating it, maybe it becomes like a popular thing
on Earth because of that? Or maybe it kills
the colony and then everyone doesn’t eat it here. It’s like the projections
to go to Mars are real. Maybe that could happen as well. But we have to be honest about
the ways it could be negative. And that’s definitely
one of them. Another one is talking about
not making it the exact same. Like chicken wings and other
products won’t be available and the impact it can have
on farmers and the farming community too. That all needs to be thought
about really seriously. And I think it’s really naive,
especially as the person who wrote about 90
benefits that it has, to say that there’s
no downfalls. There’s obviously downfalls,
just like anything in life. Just seems to be more positives
than negatives in this case. But there are negatives and
they need to be talked about. And you mentioned
a really good one. Thank you. SUZETTE BISHOP: Awesome. Well, thank you so
much for coming in. KRIS GASTERATOS:
Yeah, thank you. [APPLAUSE]

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0 thoughts on “Kris Gasteratos: “A Vision for Meat Production in 2040” | Talks at Google”

  • Amber Hays Brannon says:

    Absolutely disgusting. I bet most don't know they used aborted babies tissues to do studies that would make food more tasteful and with this type of science is just absolute diabolical.

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