The UNCrushed Podcast #2: Tiffani Bova, Growth & Innovation Evangelist Salesforce

The UNCrushed Podcast #2: Tiffani Bova, Growth & Innovation Evangelist Salesforce


Hi podcast nation. Thanks a lot for joining us once again another
episode of UNCrushed coming your way. We have a very special guest today, I’d like
to introduce . Tiffani is incredible. She’s the author of Growth IQ, a book about
the 10 paths to business success, and the sequences which to take them. She’s currently a thought leader at Salesforce,
the CRM that seems to be taking over the planet. Where she focuses on growth and innovation,
and the National Diversity Council calls Tiffani one of the most powerful and influential women
the tate of California. Hello Tiffani, thank you for being on the
show. Thank you for having me. Absolutely. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself,
what do you, why do you do it, why does it matter? And why is it important for everyone to listen? All three simultaneously. a
All at the same time. All at the same time. I’d say that I have the wonderful pleasure
of traveling around the world meeting all kinds of interesting entrepreneurs, and big
business and executives, and people who are on the path of their career. It just inspires me every day to show up and
try to make a difference. This is a great opportunity for me to continue
doing the same thing. Yeah, I appreciate that. We really love having experts like yourself
on the show, because I think people have the wrong impression about what it is to be a
professional today’s society. I’m looking forward to all the light that
you can shed on that. Where did you go to school Tiffani? I was born and raised Hawaii. That’s amazing. I went to a high school by the name of Punahou,
all the way through. It was a school that was from kindergarten
through 12. There was a handful of us. I think there was like 45 of us that was preschool,
all the way to the 12th grade. We were together, but we graduated with 315
people. Over time, we got more students to come in,
but an amazing experience for sure. Yeah, definitely different the educational
front. I’d imagine that there is quite a bit of collaboration
that goes on between the older kids, and the younger kids. Interesting enough, my wife went to a very
similar school, but Central Illinois, a little bit of a different setting. Slightly different. It’s just the ocean that’s different. That’s all. I want to talk about some of the things that
you’ve been praised for the past a little bit, just to give our audience some more about
Tiffani. Tell me about how you got started with Growth
IQ, and what spawned that idea of these 10 paths to success? I had been fortunate enough through my career. I realized early on that I was pretty good
at setting. I stumbled into selling technology after selling
all kinds of things before that. Once I found my way to technology, it was
a great experience for me. I really enjoyed it. It was challenging, I felt like I was learning
something every day, I was trying to solve really important challenges for businesses. It was an opportunity for me to travel and
grow, and grow career-wise as well. I started out as an individual contributing
sales rep, and then I moved up the ranks. Then ended up running sales teams, and so
selling hardware, and software, and then services. Then I started getting into marketing, so
I have both sales and marketing, and then my last job if you will, on the practitioning
side, I had sales service and marketing. It was this amazing opportunity for me to
be forward looking towards the customer. More importantly this was 99, to sort of 2002. I was very early the cloud, so I worked for
the U.S’ largest web hosting company. We were three or four times the size of Rackspace,
which tends to be one brand most people know. Yeah, very recognizable. Very recognizable. I was a Eloqua’s beta client, I was Constant
Contact beta client, and so really early selling SaaS, and infrastructure as a service. It wasn’t called those things then, but really
transitioning comp plans to recurring revenue. Then my last role the corporate world was
at gateway computers, I ran a division of Gateway Computers. Then I left there, and ended up being a research
analyst at Gartner for a full decade. And Gartner is the world’s largest analyst
and consulting firm for tech companies, as well as the CIO type of client. I made it all the way to being a research
fellow. After a decade i said, “What do I want to
do next?” Salesforce created a position for me to just
continue sort of marrying my practitioning expertise, with my analyst expertise that
I had learned if you will. Yeah. And allowed me to do a very similar thing
here. It’s really a perfect situation for me. I couldn’t be happier. The concept of companies creating a position
for people I think is something that’s still relatively rate, and unheard of the broad
spectrum when it comes to enterprises. I think it’s so fun to talk about people that
create awareness, and brands, and become subject matter experts, so much so that companies
that they go and speak with are like, “You know what? We have this idea for you.” I love that concept, because I think that
it really points to how valuable it is to self build, and create something that’s built
from you, but much larger than you the end, right? Salesforce, offering you a position that they’ve
created specifically for your expertise is a great example of that. It says two things. One, as an individual, you have to know, what
it is you even want to do. That’s right. You got to start there. That can be hard. Which takes times. Years sometimes. And I just say that over the course of my
career it was a combination of learning what my strengths were, and as a friend of mine
Naomi Simpsons says, and what my non-strengths were, instead of weaknesses. Nice. I like that. That’s different. It’s sort of non-strengths. Taking those strengths and saying, “How do
I double down there? And how do I focus my energy there? Versus trying to focus my energy on things
I’m not very good at, to try to get better at?” Once I realized what I was really good at,
and what my non-strengths were, then I could start to pivot, and take all my time and attention,
and focus on those things that could start to raise my visibility withcompanies, and
maybe even broader than that. I think until I did that I was sort of mixed
the masses. It was just, I was somebody who was really
good at a couple of things, but not strong enough to do this. A face the crowd. And not strong enough to do that, but good
at doing this. I said, “Hold on a second. What I really good at? How do I manifest or create a situation where
I get to just wake up every day and be totally thrilled at what I get to call work.” I love that you said that. I feel the same way every day when I wake
up. I’m very proud of how far I’ve come, and that
I’m happy to do what I do. I think that’s the part that a lot of business
professionals today miss. I’ll tell you a quick story. My wife is a forensic accountant. She has a master’s forensic accounting. When we were at a session that was being held
by the IRS, they were doing a presentation Nashville Tennessee, where I live. We were sitting the car, and all of these
financial experts started parking all around us. We get there early because we don’t like to
be rushed. We started seeing them get out of their cars,
and they were just very ho-hum about walking into this thing that they had to be at. You could tell this misery just dripping off
of me. I remember her looking at me the car and saying,
“I never want to be one of those people.” I said to her, “Then, what are you doing?” Far be it from me to criticize her. She does very well, I’m very proud of my wife
for everything she’s accomplished. She does love her job. She ended up going a completely different
direction with it, which I respect immensely. To go back to you becoming an individual contributor,
you spent all this time learning all these skills and developing this mastermind if you
will. When did you realize that you had become a
mountamover of sorts? How did Ironman get his superpowers so to
speak? I would say this, going back to what I was
just talking about on what was I really strong at, what were my non-strengths? I learned my superpowers, and then I said,
“Well, what I think it is, and what my clients think it is may be two totally different things.” I started spending quite a bit of time listening
to the feedback that I was getting. I was giving a number of keynotes a year,
and I would get feedback when I would get off stage. It would be both verbal, but it could be via
LinkedIn, or via twitter, vie an email. They would start using terms, they would say,
“What stood out for me?” Or, “Hi, I saw you last year, and I heard
what you said, and this is what I did and it changed this for me.” They started to actually define what my superpowers
were, not what I thought my superpowers were. Interesting. Because that’s what’s important. Right. I think being very self aware of what strengths
are, what your non-strengths are, and then saying, how can I take those superpowers,
and amplify them. One of them was, I’m a good storyteller. How do I tell a story? It was, your content is really good, why don’t
you write a book? It’s like, I’m not really a writer, I’m a
speaker. Then I had to figure out, how do I transcribe
my talking cadence and the way I tell a story on stage to actually do it on paper, 85,000
words? That’s daunting, right? Absolutely. I understand completely. I have a lot of friends that are speakers,
and they speak all the time. And one of the things that they will say is,
“I don’t read a lot. So I find that it would be very hypocritical
for me to go write a book. And be like, “Read my book?”” And you are like, “Did you read my book?” “No, I don’t read.” I do read, and that’s the second thing I’d
say is that I realized i had to be a constant learner. Yes. That always sort of- I love that. Absorbing content from all directions, so
whether it’s a podcast, whether it’s a book, an article, a blog, a tweet, whatever it might
be. Sure. I’ll rat-hole myself right into some topic
over the course of a day, and I come out of it knowing more. That’s the point, as long as I’m staying curious,
and I’m learning all the time, and my story is shifting and pivoting ever so slightly
of the way I might give advice, or the examples I use is constantly iterating, because of
all this amazing feedback I get, almost realtime. Social media has allowed us to get feedback
almost realtime. Also thins that people don’t like. Unpopular opinions. It’s unpopular opinions, but it could be that
I learned early on that culturally not all stories translate. To be very aware of where I was the world. Americanisms, student body left means nothing
outside the United States. For those of you listening, it’s a football
term, American football, college football term. Ultimately you have to be aware of those things. If you just show you and go, “I’m going to
give the same thing that I do a hundred times. Everywhere. Everywhere. Then it really gives the message that you
don’t care enough, that if you are speaking front of accountants, or lawyers, or technology
people, or marketers, or sellers, or customer service people. That you change the stories that you are much
more mindful of, the slides that you use, the way that you craft a story, and so that
is going back to having to know a little bit about a lot. I’m a generalist, and I’m a specialist two
categories, but the generalist allows me to cross and jump between topic very easily and
quickly. Then you have to know how to frame it a way
that it’s not authoritative, like I know I’ve done 10 years of research, and here is what
I think. It’s, I’ve spoken to a number of people, who
this is what they do all the time, and based on what they’ve said I’ve framed my position,
or my take on it. Almost building some credibility behind your
submission, right? Like here is what I’ve done, here is what
I’ve learned, here is my submission, here is my suggestion, and here is why it’s credible. Then you sort of put it out there, then you
got to wait. If they are presented the right way. To your point that fits your audience. Then you get it back. Sure. Yes, no, kind of, maybe not, right? That’s right. You have to be willing to not believe your
own story. I love that. You have to be willing to let people, otherwise
than you are not really it for them. I’m a firm believer anybody who gives a speech
or even does a podcast like this. That we are taking 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 minutes
of someone’s life, and we are using that time. If you’ve wasted their time, what a terrible
thing to do? Absolutely. You can’t make everybody happy, but I would
hate it if the majority walked out going, “That was a total waste of my time.” My goal is to say, “Was it informative, did
it challenge the way you thought? Did it keep your attention? Did it make you think differently about something? Was it valuable some way? Do you feel like that was not absolutely a
waste of your time?” If I could do that, that’s- You’ve done a service. I’ve done a service, yeah. The community at large, that said, let’s get
to the meat of it. I want to talk about burnout, because I know
that’s been a focus point for you. We did a survey, we sent out a survey asking
how people felt about burnout, and we had 91 respondents. I’d like to cover some of those responses
with you. What were your initial thoughts when you saw
the numbers, if you had something that really stood out to you? When I first made the suggestion that we should
go and do this survey. A lot of it had to do with, I’m just going
to go back my own personal career. my twenties I didn’t really know what I wanted
to do. Like i said, I was selling and marketing whatever
I could get my hands on. my thirties I had to grow up and get a real
job and- Move out of mom’s house. Exactly, I had to move out of mom’s house,
which was really terrible. Through my thirties my goal was, make more
money, get more acknowledgement, sort of more status the business if you will. I was a lead, I was a manager, I was a director,
I was a VP. Growth. Moving up the ladder making more money. my thirties that was my goal. During that time there was about a three and
a half year period where I did not sleep my bed for seven straight nights, for three and
a half years. I had not slept at home for three and a half
years, for seven straight nights. I was grinding. I was working Los Angeles, I was commuting
to work Atlanta, I was turning Monday, Friday, I was home for two days. This is not sustainable. Not sustainable. I was absolutely burning out, and I was the
office at 7:00, I would work until 7:00, I was the meeting grind all the time. I was spending no time on myself, I had no
time to actually do work. I wasn’t aware that I was actually burning
out. I just felt like, this is what you are going
to do. This is the life. This is the life. This is what it is to be a professional, right? I was a senior vice president a publicly traded
company. I was carrying the load of sales marketing
and customer service. We were a $120,000,000 recurring revenue business. Goals achieved. Goals achieved. The CEO was, we had executive meetings on
Saturdays. He knew my mom’s number, my home number. He knew how to find me. He was paging you, on your old pager. I was absolutely feeling burnout. The day I made the decision to leave corporate
America that kind of contributing role, I had had sort of the life blood sucked right
out of me. I had nothing left to give. I remember the day very vividly where I got
up, I looked the mirror, I was getting ready to go to work, and all of a sudden the person
I saw was, I wasn’t laughing, I wasn’t having fun, I hadn’t seen my friends. I was just traveling, and I was just grinding. I said, “I have to get off this merry-go-round. Part of the reason I actually went to Gartner
was, I had to get off the merry-go-round, I was an individual contributor, nobody reported
to me, and I didn’t carry a quota. It took me about three years to actually unwind
my braon the pace that I was working. Three years. It was about three years, but because I was- That’s quite some time. Because it was like, I felt like this is the
pace I need to work. Even when I was the middle of it, halfway
through that 10 years, people would be like, “I don’t know how you produce as much as you
produce the time that you produce in.” I learned that I was very efficient and effective
with my time, but I got my weekends back, I got my life back, I sort of re-injected
myself into my family and my friends, all of those things. That’s good. Once that started to happen, then I started
to find my way onto what I wanted to do next. I really had to unwind a lot of habits that
I had formed over time. I’m not saying that it took a three full years
for me to even wake back up. It was like six months later one thing would
peel off, six months later two or three more things would peel off. You know what I’m saying? Sure, the layers. The layers would peel away. It took me about three years to where I woke
up one day and I went, “What do I want to do next?” I can breathe. When you guys reached out and we started talking
about this specifically the sales world, I think it’s a completely underrepresented topic
for people who carry a quota for a living. Absolutely. That if we are not selling anything, the business
goes out of business. The life of a salesperson is the responsibility
of I have to sell, I have to bring money the door, and if I don’t people are going to lose
their jobs. I might lose my job. It’s 24/7. Customers, we have trained customers over
time that no matter when they pay just call us, or email us as salespeople we answer. It interrupts our day, our weekends, our family
time, because we are constantly worried about that deal coming in. Have I responded time? If I don’t respond time will my client go
somewhere else? That responsibility is a heavy burden I think. I think I missed a tremendous opportunity
as a sales leader to actually be aware of the grind that I was then putting on my teams. Because you were leading that example. Because I was leading the example, number
one. Number two, I wasn’t sort of injecting that,
we are going to take an hour, we are going to go do something fun, I’m going to break
the grind. Disconnect for a moment. Disconnect for a moment, and this is long
before smartphones … I mean, we barely had PalmPilots, and Blackberries. Blackberries, yeah. Sure. Pagers. This is so … I can’t even imagine if I was
still doing what I was doing today’s world with the 24/7, always on, because already
the balance now I have, I’m much more mindful, but I could get very caught it agaif I had
to go back to doing that role. It’s an easy thing to do. I think people post about it often. I say this is best practice pretty regularly
now, but just based on this survey, I’m glad that I do it. I fall right into the prime demographic of
this survey. My A of 37, it seems the highest percentage
of participation for us was between 35 and 44. Then the role was highest percentage again,
inside sales and outside sales, that’s me. Then for the sales experience, the 50 plus
had 10 or more years, and I fall right into all of those primary demographics. That’s right when you are starting to put
your foot on the gas, right? You’ve been selling like … I couldn’t have
ever expected my twenties to be climbing. It’s different now I think many ways. Sure. Because I’ve said, my twenties, I didn’t know
what I wanted to do. My thirties was all about money and sort of
title. my forties it was really ab out getting my
life back and what did I want to do next? Now I’m my fifties, I’m older than you. I’m 53, and it was all about how do I give
back? I love that progression. That was my progression. I posted that on LinkedIn, and Twitter maybe
18 months ago. It was probably one of the most ed, liked
and shared post that I had done. Lots of people could back and go, “Well, I
had a child my twenties, I got married my twenties.” Theirs was a different timing. Yeah, and the path was different. The path was different, but I think everyone
understood that, some people now, millennials are much more oriented towards giving back
earlier than maybe my generation was. I don’t know, but I can only say that that
was my path. I wonder what kind of leader, and manager
I would be if I could go back into my thirties knowing what I know now. And having all the tools that we currently
have. And having all the tools we have now order
to help my people burn out. It would have been a different game indeed
for you I’m sure. Who knows? Right? Who knows? Yeah. Only the people who worked for me could tell
you whether it’d be better or worse, I don’t know. Let’s talk a little bit about stress right
now, because that was the focus of our survey. At what point do people feel enough stress
to feel like they are completely spent, just burnt out? I thoughts the results were really interesting,
because they sort of varied age, but it was on the high end, no matter the age group,
and no matter the role, it was still on the high end. There seems to be a heavy correlation between
sales stress and burnout general. The role itself tends to be one of the more
stressful roles when you are measuring on a scale of 1 to 10 how stressful are you? We didn’t have anybody that put less than
a five there, no matter the age. Tell us a little bit about why you think sales
is the most stressful industry today, outside of being “a caring individual” with that sense
of pressure. Do you think there is an expectation of perfection,
like the first month for quarter three might not look as good as the second month of quarter
three. Then there is that comparison, what did I
do wrong? I think there is a self reflection there that
companies tend to encourage that’s not very healthy. What are your thoughts on that? I’d say with sales, and I’ll go back to what
I was just saying a minute ago. If you are a sales rep, the pressure and stress
you feel is almost daily. Because this is kind of like, what did you
do for me today? What have you done for me lately? Yes, Janet Jackson, right? Ultimately, you get rejected every time you
pick up the phone and it’s a cold call. Every time you say, you have to deal with
the rejection all the time. You better have sort of thick skand know how
to deal with rejection, number one. Number two, you are not going to wevery deal. I mean, the stats out now are some little
north of 50% of people will miss a quarter this year. 50%? 50%, and 66% of their time is spent on non-selling activities. They are inefficient, and they are missing
quarter. Doing things like managing data and prospecting,
and not doing the selling part of it. They are not selling, right? Yeah. So you are like, “You are stressed, because
like, “I just want to be selling. I got to do all this other stuff. Management is making me do that. I’ve been rejected 99 times today. I just need one person to just say yes for
a meeting for me.” It’s the constant reassurance personally like
you’ve got to have the fortitude to just get up every day, and go, “I’m going to face this
day no matter what happens.” sales there is also the challenge of, sometimes
it’s a very low base pay. Like minimum wage pay, and then you have this
upside on the quarter. You know if you are not killing the deal,
and you are not making quarter, you are not going to make your bills. That’s right. Some industries, like real estate, you make
no money if you sell nothing, at all. I think the average amount of realtors across
the country sell an average of 1.5 homes a year. It’s very low. It’s very low. That means you always hear about the high
performers, but the mass of people sell a home, or two all year. Which means, how do you live? Right? Right. If you have children, you are a single parent,
or you are the breadwinner the household, Or you have student loans. You have student loans. I mean, I think the stress comes with, there
is high stress, high reward. There is high commitment, there is high reward. There is, you got to have your big girl, big
boy pants on every single day. That’s right. There is high reward. The sky is the limit, you can earn a lot of
money selling if you are really good at it. You can be okay at it, and it can still be
stressful. I think it requires a very specific kind of
personality. I was an athlete my whole life, and I think
that that really shaped me into being able to be competitive. Loss with my head held high, wwith humility,
coaches, teams, individual contributor. That’s right. I learned all those skills. I think it’s a great place to find sales people,
like athletes are a great place, and really good communicators. If you have … If you don’t like rejection,
and you don’t like the uncertainty of what you are going to earn or not, sales is probably
not for you. I would agree. I think there is an expectation that salespeople
have to have coming into the role to know that they are going to have to work, but how
much are they going to have to work, and what is the relationship between marketing and
sales typically hinges on that kind of number. To give you a good example, on our survey
here, 67 respondents said that they often worked extra long hours, way above and beyond
the contracted hours. I want to know, what that looks like for sales
people at a mass level. 67% is not peanuts, out of the 91, that is
way over the mark for half. If we are to work 40 hours a week, 50 hours
a week. Fine. I feel like that’s relatively normal. I’m happy to put an extra hour or two a day,
to network, and build prospect, and pipeline. I feel like that’s a healthy activity to do. today’s society, today’s technological world,
we don’t have the burden of having to be at the office and sitting at our desk, because
that’s where the good internet is. We all have good internet, we all have mobile
devices. I have a little tiny computer my pocket, that
I can take the buss home, and spend that hour on the bus networking, and having conversations
with people. To some extent, as you said, you got to put
those big boy pants on, big girl pants on, and realize that this is the role you signed
up for, and the sacrifices that you make are what yields that quarter at the end of the
month, so that you can consistently hit those goals. So that you can find that time after you hit
that goal to take to yourself. So if you are a salesperson, I know a lot
of sales people that will take time off at the end of their month. I find that to be poor planning. I think sales people who are smarter, they
would take it at the beginning of the month, so they could come back strong at the beginning
of the month, after a couple of days off, feeling refreshed, and really hammer home
the effectiveness that they can deliver for their prospects. What are your thoughts on the percentage of
people, 67% going above and beyond and feeling burned down as a result of working too much? Well, it goes back to what I was saying a
little ago. I think sales is one of those professions,
it’s almost like a doctor. You are on call 24/7. 67% of that, if I were to really go, reach
out and ask those people, maybe because you answered a client text message, or email,
or phone call at eight o’clock on a Thursday night, because that’s when they could get
back to you, because they are working hard. Then they reach out to you and they want you
to be available. Sometimes we have to be as available as our
clients want us to be available. That’s right. Part of that is, this unrealistic expectation
that everyone wants an instantaneous response, and we’ve also rained our clients to do that. If we don’t do it we worry that the risk would
be they’d go somewhere else. I’d say I almost don’t agree with do it at
the beginning of the month, do it at the end of the month. I think this is where if I could go back to
my sales leadership role, would be, how do I help every day? Because I think that the grind over time,
you just start to become less effective. You are tired, you are not paying attention
meetings, you are not following. The balls get dropped. I don’t feel like taking notes today. Whatever it might be. Because you are just burned out. What’s a way that you can do where you carve
an hour out a day to just do things that you want to do? It could be listening to a podcast, it could
be going for a walk, it could be talking with a coach or a mentor, or it could be something
that you do- Go to the gym at lunch. Go to the gym at lunch, whatever it might
be. I think that recharge is really important,
because just adding another hour on the day, and then saying, “It’s okay, I’ll put it the
bank at the end of the month.” Taking three days is never going to make up
for the two hours a day over the course of the 20 days, which is 60 hours, over the course
of a month that you’ve spent. You’ve showed up late, you haven’t had dinner
with your family. You are not doing things on weekends. Your missed your daughter’s recital. There is probably list of things. That goes back to what I was saying, that
my thirties, it was just, there was no candle left by the time I got to 40. There was no candle left, I’d burnt it on
both ends. I would say that finding a way to take the
time. This goes to the sales managers, and sales
leaders that are listening. Sure. Kind of what I said, would I be a different
manager today knowing what I do, and understanding the power that burnout has on the effectiveness
of the team, and keeping people motivated and inspired to do what I need them to do
every day? Versus, just letting them grind, and I’m hitting
them going, “50% of you are going to miss your quarter, 60% of your time is spent on
non-selling, go, go, go, go.” I’d say that the sales managers have a responsibility
to make sure that they are paying attention, if their team or an individual is appearing
to be burned out, where they are not as talkative as they normally are, or their emails are
late. You can see what time they are sending you
emails, at 10:00, 11:00, 12:00, two o’clock the morning, that’s a behavior you need to
stop, and say, “Hey, I appreciate you working this hard, but I don’t want ever to see an
email from you at two o’clock the morning.” That’s the manager’s responsibility to not
reward that behavior, to go, “Thank you for getting that to me on time.” Sure. Instead of just saying, “I see it came at
2:00 the morning, which leads me to believe you didn’t get a chance to do it. What can I carve off your plate, so that you
can focus on this? Because I don’t want you to be doing it at
2:00 the morning.” That’s interesting. Great question, I’d actually say that the
sales manager is going to have far more ability to impact the team than the CEO would. The CEO should set a cultural temperature,
for mindfulness and burnout, and the wellbeing of his or her employees. Good communicating. Giving tools and ability to, if they are trouble- Resources. Resources to go for help. I think that’s the role of the CEO. As a manager of a team, I’m just using this
as an example. As a manager I’m not going to send emails
to my team on the weekend. That’s my steadfast rule, I’m just making
this as an example for you. If you do, it’s because of one, two, or three
reasons. There is only one, two, or three reasons that
I would send it. Like all of a sudden some fire happened, and
whatever. For general, when I sit down on a Saturday
as a manager and I choose to spend three hours to catch up on email, and I start to send
out a flurry of emails. Then it’s telling everyone else, you need
to answer me on a Saturday. That would be one thing to do is just to have
a rule, we are not going to do emails between 7:00 and 7:00, or we are not going to do them
on weekends. If you do, it needs to be for these reasons. Try to get people out of those habits of not
feeling like they are constantly tethered to phone, email, text, social media. Another could be where, like that example,
where the manager is really aware of when a behavior moves outside of that time, or
you start to notice that somebody’s behavior is, they are a little more relaxed, or tired,
or they are showing up late to meetings, or they starting to really drop the ball. It’s the role of the manager to then step
up and say, “Let me pull you aside. I care about you. I want to make sure you are healthy and everything
is okay.” It’s not just about the quarter. That’s right. We need to do both, but you need to take care
of … What can I do to help take some of this off your plate? I think that’s what didn’t do as a sales manager,
when I was just pushing and grinding, and pushing and grinding. I like to have fun. Not a stickler. Not a stickler. I wanted to hit numbers and when pressure
rolled downhill to me- It rolls downhill to others. I would buffer 50% of it, and I’d only give
them 50% of it, which might be a lot. Some people don’t take that kind of pressure
well. Indeed. Other people thrive that kind of pressure. Once agaas a manager not everyone is the same,
not everyone is going to respond. I’m fond of saying that not everyone likes
to be coached the same. You can’t have a blanket approach when you
are dealing with a team. You can have blanket statements, you can have
blanket meetings, you can have informative meetings, where you tell people what’s happening,
and changes that are taking place as a unit, but when it comes to individual coaching,
there are no processes for an individual. It just takes relationship building, and knowing,
as you said earlier, what someone’s strengths, and non-strengths are, so that you can leverage
that data, that knowledge that you’ve accumulated over time about that individual order to be
effective. I like that approach because I think it’s
very real, and I think it’s much more impactful. If you look at people coming out of college
at 24 years old, 23 years old, I’m looking at a group of kids that if you started them
at 35, $40,000 a year, plus commission, it’d be more money that they made their entire
college career working part-time jobs. It’s a good opportunity for them to spend
a year underneath you as a sales professional, as a leader, cutting their teeth, learning
the ropes, figuring how to do this, have that great conversation, and really connect with
people, and dial what it is to be a professional, an industry that is constantly growing, and
ever-changing. What I see is that we have two conflicting
pieces of data. One, everybody seems to be hyper-stressed. Two, they are afraid to come forward and say
something for fear of the stigma that exists, when you are dealing with mental health issues
like burnout or anxiety. That sigma can be daunting sometimes. Yet, 71% report that their company has resources
available to them, to help them cope with this. It’s interesting to me that such a high percentage
reports that they feel that way, but yet another percentage reports, “No, I don’t want to say
anything, because I just have to keep trying harder. I just have to keep grinding. I just have to keep going. Stay the course.” I say this a lot. Why have that feeling and have that resource
and not take advantage of it? I think that’s a great question, because I
wonder if my thirties, if there had been a resource, there wasn’t. But had there been one, if I would have walked
in. Do you think you would have? I don’t know, because retrospect I think I
realized how burnt out I was. When I was it- Hindsight 2020. Yeah, I was it. I was like, “What?” No way, I’m doing awesome. It’s Monday, I’m at the office at 7:00, I
leave at … I mean, you know what I mean? Yeah. I had a complete routine. My EA at the time, Julie, pretty much managed
my life. She would just point to me where I needed
to go, what meeting I needed to go into, and what I needed to do. Without her the wheels would have fallen off. I don’t know if I would have gone- Julie, did you say Julie? Julie, yeah. Shout out to you Julie. Yeah, shout to you Julie. You made it happen. You did, you totally made it happen. No one can do it alone. Anybody who knows me during that time will
know exactly what I’m talking about. She was awesome. I would say I don’t know if I would have. I think that today we are a different time. I think the leader who also has a high empathy
quotient Amen, there it is. Is really powerful. You can be a really good leader, but if you
have no empathy people aren’t going to get that boat, and go on this journey with you. Yeah. I would say, going back to strengths and non-strengths. If you are listening and you know that you
do not have a high empathy quotient. I would go as a leader, and go to those help
professionals, the resources you have at work, and go, “Look, this is a non-strength for
me. I don’t know how to approach people on this. What I’d like to do is once a month set up
a time where my team comes for 15 minutes, and you just do a touch base with them. If there is anything I need to know, then
we’ll have a meeting at the end of that, and you can tell me, here are the things I should
look out for. So that you can help me, because I’m not as
aware, or I don’t know what to do with that kind of situation. I may even learn along the way that maybe
I want to talk to somebody too. Right. If you know that’s a non-strength of yours. Then it’s your responsibility as a manager
of a team, of people who rely on you to make sure that they are okay every single day. That you make the first step. If you do it, then you can give it as an example. I went to go to talk to Molly or Bob. I we had this resource, and I was feeling
totally burnout, like last week kicked my ass. I just didn’t know what to do to get my head
above water. I went and talked to her. She gave me these three things, how many of
you feel like that? Something that simple, but you’ve said, “I
feel it. I’ve done this. It’s okay.” You open it up. They may not, … Not everyone will raise
their hand and go, “God, I can talk about it now.” Thank you. Yeah, that’s not going to happen. I think setting up that time where you just
do it, where every month everyone has to go for a 15 minute touch base, and I’m going
to leave it to you for your responsibility, but you have to do it. You have to do it. You have to do it. Maybe over time you’ll stop talking about
the kids, and sports, and whatever, and you may open up to something. They know how to get you to open up if needed. They do. As a manager you have to set the example,
but this has everything to do with empathy, and going back to, if it’s a non-strength
of yours, then lean on the people who this is what they do for a living. But do not put your head the sand and act
like it’s not happening. If 67% of the people on the survey say that
they are feeling stressed, 67% of your team is feeling stressed. If they feel that it’s going to hinder their
career, then your team is feeling that. You are not immune to the fact that people
are feeling burnt out, stressed, and need help. That’s right. Don’t fall into that trap. If you are a leader out there listening to
this, don’t fall into that trap of thinking that’s not me. You’ll never know until you talk to your team
about it, and be open about what your expectations are. We have a lot of really interesting s on the
survey that came through. A lot of people were saying they felt like
burnout was a real threat, but specifically the service industry I saw a tweet, you were
on the news, what show was it that you were on? Where you were talking about customer service
general, and how it’s one of the most stressful industries to be today. You had mentioned something about why customer
service is such a stressful environment, and why people that customer service deal with
interesting people for lack of better phrasing? I think you said it much better than I did
just now. As somebody that’s sales, it’s sort of hand
hand with customer, service, right? I know a lot of salespeople that call themselves
customer service, I know a lot of customer service people that say they are sales. It’s sort of one and the same today’s world. What kind of mechanisms do you recommend for
salespeople that are as you said earlier, constantly feeling that sense of rejection,
and unable to catch up, no matter what they do, because there is just so much no out there. We are programmed now to decline a new connection,
because we are afraid that it might, to your point earlier, waste our time. Right. Our time is so valuable and crucial to our
success, our team’s success. I would rather give my time to my team than
I would a prospect on some days, because I feel it would be more beneficial for the team
than my pocketbook dealing with this prospect today. How do you find that line the sand so to speak? For customer service specifically? Yeah, specifically customer service. There was a fantastic article the Wall Street
Journal, it depends on when this airs, but I’m sure we can dig it up. It literally was like customer service is
almost a new therapy. Tell me more about that. Because it was really customers call and sort
of go, “I can’t get a hold of my daughter, I don’t know how to long distance call, can
you step me through this?” Or “Oh my God, this didn’t fix, or this didn’t
work. It came and it was,” and they are just throwing
up a problem on you. It’s your job to kind of like, especially
if they are really angry, calm them down. And help them solve a problem. Yeah. It’s okay. some organizations, the example that was used
was Zappos, was how long that customer service organization, customer success organization
will stay on the phone with the customer. That is very different than some organizations
that say you can only be on the line with a customer for two minutes, three minutes,
four minutes. They view it as a call center, and it’s just
grinding a very similar way to sales like, how many people did you call? How many calls did you take? How much revenue did you sell? How much revenue did you save? Everything is attached to a dollar. How many phone calls did you make? How many did you answer? It’s very attached to a metric, on the sales
side it’s rejection, on the customer service side it’s just pissed off customers usually. Right. Those are two very stressful situations. Indeed. I would say on both fronts, taking that time
that you know customer service that people rarely call and go, “I just wanted to say
how fantastic I think your product was, and that I love you today. That’s all I wanted to say.” Just calling to give you some positive vibe. Any customer service people, or customer success
people that hear that, please let us know. Because the mean of a hundred calls you get,
how many tell you they love you, and how many tell you you suck? It’s probably zero. I think the thing that people hear all the
time is like do a great job and someone tells 10 people, do a bad job and someone tweets
it. Right, and you have people listening on your
phone calls, judging you on how you’ve handled a really irate customer. You can have zero emotion. All of the things that’s very difficult, I
think customer services, equally, equally tough. To your point, I often say that customer service
is the new Salesforce towards, the future, because they have this ability to upsell and
cross-sell, and they are nurturing the existing base of customers you have, hence customer
success versus sales. Those two things together, and so that goes
to the question that was asked earlier about, this is where I really think the CEO plays
a role is what is the feeling, and approach that the company has of the role of customer
service? A cost center that is just a place where all
stuff rolls downhill and it ends up that bucket. Salespeople are often guilty of selling things,
tossing it over the fence, and letting customer service deal with it. That’s true. That’s also not fair. That is true. Bringing those two things together needs to
be the sort of view of it’s not only for the customer’s benefit, but it’s just for the
health of the business, I mean, you want people to work together. That’s right, collaboration is key, and you
don’t just collaborate internally, you collaborate with your prospects and customers too. I have been noted for saying for many years
now, it used to be enough to make a sale. It really did, it used to be enough, if I
used to sell one time sales. We were doing credit cards, and cruise tickets. We would literally just call people and say,
“Hi, thanks for signing up for this awesome Discover card. We’d like to offer you a cruise at this rate.” People would say yes or no. I’ll tell you the truth, you’d make a sale,
and you’d go, “I’m awesome.” That was the end of the conversation, you
never have to talk to that person again. They bought the tickets from you, thank you
so much for your business. Then they call up, they call customer service
and go, “This guy, dude, whatever his name was, James, John, Jerry, whatever. Sold me something I don’t even want.” I don’t want, I woke up today and changed
my mind. As a matter of fact, I don’t even think I
talked to him, was it really me? This charge here my credit card, it wasn’t
even me. It wasn’t even me. I didn’t order that. Now it’s your problem, not my problem. Okay. And I’m just going to keep saying, let me
talk to your supervisor, let me talk to your supervisor, let me talk to your supervisor. Then it gets all the way to the top supervisor,
who then ends up giving the credit. And all of a sudden it starts rolling down,
and then it goes back to me the customer service agent, who was just doing my job. That’s right. Because James, John, Jerry, whoever, sold
something that this customer didn’t want. You are like, “That’s not what happened.” It was never a good sale to begwith, right? It was never. Or you are like, “Wait a second, she was all
thrilled what happened the 12 hour period?” What happened? Her husband got home and changed her mind
for her, who knows? Then someone is like, “Well, let me go listen
to the recording.” Now it’s like, let me take that little hair,
and I’m going to split it 900 ways, and I’m going to pick at everything you did incorrectly
or correctly, right? That’s right. Which goes back to, it’s stressful, I’m burnt,
I don’t feel appreciated. No one is looking out for me. It changes everything about the way you perform
every day. Every day. Every day. Because every day as a salesperson. That’s right. Every day as a customer service rep, not every
day as a marketer, not every day as a product manager. Yeah. Not every day as someone HR, or legal, or
whatever else the company, but every day sales and every day customer service you are judged,
a hundred times. I agree with you 100%. I have said all the time that every sale cycle
looks pretty much the same. We like to put little tiny things inside of
it that are our own little like, this helps, and that helps, but I think it’s all based
on six primary goals. Content is the road to connection, connection
leads to conversation. That conversation should grow into a relationship,
or some people call this trust. Once you have that, you should have no problem
asking for an opportunity, and the law of averages says the more opportunities we have
the more sales we make. It’s not enough to just make that sale anymore. We have to then maintathat relationship for
365 days, and be sure that it’s a valuable one for our person, our customer, our prospect. That way they feel like they are connected
to us. It’s not enough to just find the value, we
have to also be connected to our audience, and to the people that are purchasing our
products, every day, every year, every quarter. For a salesperson that’s out there celebrating
that demo, stop it. That demo is just the beginning, it’s a seed
that you’ve planted the hopes that it will survive and grow into a giant oak one day. I would say that here is where the rubber
meets the road for me. Is that today the metrics that are used to
track sales performance, and customer service performance, are actually leading those roles
to the road of burnout. Did you call a hundred people, did you answer
a hundred calls? Did you hit your quarter? Did you save this many sales? The metric is driving this constant hamster
wheel, law of averages, if I talk to a hundred people, 10 will make a meeting, two will book- How many doors do I need to knock on? How many doors? This is where leaders, CEOs who are listening
to this, who go, what could I put behind this arrow to try to start to make some change? One was, giving the opportunity for people
to have a place to go when they are feeling burnt out, and making it part of the role. You need to go 15 a month, or half hour a
month, whatever you want to do. If you don’t have someone inhouse, have someone
come for that day or two that you bring just for your team. Do not use the excuse that there is no one
inhouse. Go to HR, work it out. On the flip of it is putting metrics place
that are much more relationship oriented. Following your sort of example that you just
gave, many companies, research we’ve done at Salesforce, have been trying to flip sales
and customer service metrics to be much more customer oriented. It could be net promoter scores, it could
be customer satisfaction, it could be churn rates. It could be all of these leading indicators
that are more relationship based, and not just the hardcore metrics, that my opinion
just drive that behavior to if I call a hundred people, 10 will call me, two will- That’s right. I show up to work, I’m customer service, oh
my God, I’m going to take 320 calls today on average, because I’ve done that for the
last 12 months. Of the 320, 319 of them are going to yell
at me. I can’t wait to go to work. Yeah, I’m super pumped. Actually I’m feeling kind of sick. Right? And so what happens when people are grinding
at work? They call sick. They do. Think about how could you adjust some of the
metrics to actually give people, your people sales and customer service sort of a little
bit of breathing room to make those connections, and have it be as important if not more important
than the hardcore metrics. For a seller, I don’t care if you call a hundred
people or a thousand people. I just need you to sell. If you only need to sell 10, and she needs
to call 20, and he needs to call 50. That is what it is. I just need you to be you, lean on your strengths,
go get the business done, right? Yeah. For me to micromanage you, on both accounts,
on metrics, I think leads us down this path of, I’m just constantly chasing approval from
my managers, the check on the box that I’m doing what I’m supposed to do, and more importantly
I’m hitting my numbers. What bothers me as a leader about metrics
based selling practices is that when you assign that metric, the salesperson is going to hit
that goal, but that doesn’t mean you are going to see results as a leader. Oftentimes you see the goals consistently
being hit. I made 60 calls today, I sent 40 emails, I
had 10 cold calls. I added 15 people to my cadences. Pick a metric that you’d like to focus on,
and then at the end of the month, no demos have been set, no meetings have been set,
no closes have happened. That leader will still come out of their office
and go, “Hi, where is all the success?” That sales representative will try and go,
“I don’t know, but I’ve met all your metrics.” That’s because like I said, 66% of time is
spent on non-selling. Unfortunately this goes back to the leaders. The leaders need to rethink the metrics. This is a whole another podcast. We can do it. The leaders need to rethink the metrics, and
really for the output, not the input, but the output. Sure. Because for example, I might be really good
at cold calling, you might be really good at emails, but you want me to do 50 emails,
and you to do 50 phone calls, and I would rather do … I’m much better at doing this,
you are much better at doing that. The end result is we set three demos. I don’t care how you do it, LinkedIn, social,
phone call, email. It doesn’t matter. We need three demos, that’s the output I need. If you are not setting the demos then I can
peel back and go, “Well, what are you doing? Are you calling? Are you emailing? Maybe that’s not for you. Let’s find another way, what is it?” Time management kind of a focus. It should really be about the output. While I obviously work for a CRM company,
salespeople and customer service agents don’t wake up every day and go, “I can’t wait today
to enter.” It’s not a goal of ours. We have to find ways to start to use technology
different ways. Using machine learning and artificial intelligence
to take some of those tasks off the plate of both of both of roles. Yes. Allowing them to free up, so that intelligence
can tell me, Tiffani does better when she calls than when she emails. James is much better when he emails than when
he calls. James, you email, I call- Let’s make it happen. Let’s make it happen. That’s right. As a manager, going back to your comment about
you can’t coach everyone the same. Not everyone is a running back, not everyone
is a kicker, not everyone is a quarterback, not everyone is a lineman. It has to be a team and everyone is playing
their role. I think it’s important as a leader not only
to have this empathy cushion, but also really using all the data that we have now at our
disposal to make very different decisions about how you grew. That was really sort of the genesis of on
one of your very first questions on Growth IQ, it was how do we reframe and put a modern
twist on the way businesses have grown? It’s really being powered by all this stuff
we have now. Social, mobile, cloud, big data, and then
AI, IoT, machine learning. The fourth industrial revolution all sort
of rolled up. Rolled up into one. I agree. For those of you out here listening to this. I think that it’s supposed to be … Don’t
forget, it’s supposed to be fun. You are supposed to enjoy what you do every
day when you get up the morning. If you don’t, you should change what you do,
because life is too short to wake up miserable every day. I can’t stress that enough to those salespeople
out there that struggle with why am I failing, or why am I feeling the way that I feel? It is easy to fall into that. Tiffani, tell everybody how they can reach
you, and what the best way to consume your content and learn from you is. We do have to talk about your podcast before
you leave. Okay. I have a podcast called What’s Next. I am pretty active on social media, you can
connect with me on LinkedIn, or on Twitter, on Instagram. I’m pretty responsive. Ultimately, I’m always looking for feedback. I’d love to hear what resonated with you from
this conversation, what you didn’t agree with is really good. That’s really good content for me to hear
what you didn’t agree with, because this is all about trying to learn how I have this
wonderful opportunity to have a platform to share these stories. I’d rather share stories that resonate with
people than share stories that people completely turn off to. For me, the best feedback I can give you is
that I think there is a comfortable balance between KPIs and relationship based selling. We just have to find it, it’s there. I know it’s there, because I ride that fence
every day. I do stuff like this, and yet, I’m an SDR
at heart. I will always be an SDR. My heart belongs to the hunt is what I say. New business, new conversations is my addiction. Yet, because I film with my producer Grant
Greene every day, I meet awesome people like you. I create amazing content and this awesome
opportunity. I still go over there to my laptop and I still
pick up the phone and dial 15 people the next hour and a half if I have to. I still send 20 cold emails. I still use AI to see what is happening with
my emails after I send them, and what the open rates are, so that I can gauge interest. I still do all the things that SDRs have to
do, and I love my job. I feel stressed out, because I love my job. I’ve said many meetings before that the jobs
sometimes you want to quit are the best ones. Well, I’d say this. I’d say for those of you listening and say,
“Maybe I’m not so happy at my job. Maybe I’d like to be an SDR, maybe I’d like
to get marketing, maybe I’d like to get customer service.” I did a webinar with Seth Godin, who is sort
of the master of all things marketing. That’s right. I’ve known Seth for a really long time, and
for those of you who don’t know the story, the reason I actually wrote the book is because
Seth told me I should write the book. I said, “Okay. Let me think on that.” It took me a couple of years, but I did listen. You helped make this Monster Seth. Pretty much. I met him 2000. There are all kinds of reasons that Seth is
important my life. I would say this is that, he said to me when
I said, “If somebody is listening to this and they want to get into marketing, and they
are their career. What do you recommend?” He said, “Go market.” He goes, “Go market for your girl scout cookies,
for the PTA, for your sports team.” If you want to sell like sell whatever, crispy
creams to go earn money for your kid’s hockey team or basketball team, whatever. go sell, learn how to sell. If you want to give presentations, go give
presentations to a small group, to a bigger group. Work for free, learn your craft, find what- Hone your skills. Hone your skills and find your way. Then you can say, “Okay, I actually do like
that better.” Instead of putting so much pressure on yourself
that you wake up every day and you are not happy. Unfortunately, the averages are that most
people are not, and they don’t get the opportunity to say, “I love what I do every day. I feel blessed.” Do you feel blessed? I sure do. If you are struggling with what you are doing,
and you are trying to find your next path, I would take that piece of advice. Whatever you think it might be, go try it,
learn and then if you really like it, one, then you got to figure out, how do I get paid
to do what I love doing? That’s the trick. That’s the win. That’s the win. Or how do I keep doing what I’m doing part-time,
and how do I do what I really love part-time until I can get to a place where I really
love full-time? I would say my last piece of advice is to
trust the process. Sure. If I knew as I’ve said a number of times,
back when I was 30 what I know now, would I have done things differently? Absolutely. But I didn’t know what my end game was, I
didn’t know, trust me I never thought I’d write a book, trust me I never thought I’d
work for Salesforce. Trust me … I wouldn’t be on these lists
that you mentioned, I wouldn’t be doing what I’m doing, no way that I thought that that’s
what it was going to be. Maybe I thought that would be awesome, but
I didn’t know that each little thing I did was leading me closer and closer. That’s right. To an opportunity that Salesforce then creates
a position for me. I think there is a lot to be said for trusting
the process. Well, Tiffani, I can’t thank you enough for
all your insights. This has been an incredible conversation. I really have enjoyed sitting across from
you and just absorbing everything that you have. Excellent. Well, thank you. Yeah, this was great, it was fun. I appreciate everything that you’ve given
our audience today. Check us out at uncrushed.org. We are absolutely thrilled to be bringing
experts like Tiffani to the table so that you can all learn what it is to be uncrushed,
to be somebody that is not daunted by the challenges of every day life, career, goals,
family, and balance general. I would love to hear your story. Check us out at uncrushed.org. Hit subscribe if this has been a helpful podcast
for you, or even if you just found this insightful, and interesting like I did. I don’t think that there is a better podcast
out there right now than UNCrushed, and Whats Next, and Make it Happen Mondays, and all
these fantastic insightful things that are being said our community. Support us, support our guest, go follow Tiffani,
she truly is a wealth of knowledge to be learned from. Tiffani, thanks so much for the time. Thank you.

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